--- Log opened Wed Sep 01 17:00:51 2004
17:01 < xiph> rehi
17:01 -!- xiph is now known as xiphmont
17:01 < xiphmont> rillian: are you chairing tonight?
17:02 -!- Arc [~arc@208-59-116-202.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #xiphmeet
17:02 -!- rillian changed the topic of #xiphmeet to: Welcome to the Xiph.org meeting and discussion channel | September MonthlyMeeting in progress; live log at http://westfish.xiph.org/~giles/200409_meeting.txt for those joining us late
17:02 -!- kfish [~conrad@balgowlah-ep.tip.csiro.au] has joined #xiphmeet
17:02 < rillian> hi arc, conrad
17:02 < Arc> hey. do we have an agenda?
17:02 < rillian> xiphmont, I was expecting to
17:02 < kfish> morning rillian
17:02 < rillian> but you're welcome to if you'd like :)
17:03 < rillian> Arc, it seems we do not
17:03 < rillian> Shall we begin?
17:04 < rillian> looks like a small crew this time
17:04 < rillian> thanks everyone for coming
17:04 < xiphmont> hello
17:04 < rillian> In admin news, Monty is now our Executive Director
17:04 < rillian> and well be doing more of that sort of work
17:04 < rillian> including a lot of the things jack used to do
17:05 < xiphmont> Yes, I start on this for real in roughly 1.5 weeks, but have already had some meetings to lay groundwork.
17:05 -!- myidiym [~myidiym@24-50-56-67.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #xiphmeet
17:05 < silvia_> what does that mean?
17:05 < Arc> does this mean monty is no longer primarily a coder?
17:06 < rillian> I'm also now 'treasurer' so in the unlikely event someone has financial questions, you can direct them to me :)
17:06 < xiphmont> That means I will function as an executive for the organization, not as technical staff.
17:06 < xiphmont> Arc: correct.
17:06 < Arc> so the bugfixes you made to libogg recently were your last for awile?
17:06 < xiphmont> No, it's simply not my primary duty.
17:07 < Arc> ok.
17:07 < rillian> So some role reshuffling
17:08 < rillian> We have a wiki again, thanks the Jan (j^)
17:08 < rillian> we still don't have the data from the old one
17:08 < rillian> so he installed mediawiki for us (the software that powers wikipedia)
17:08 < rillian> and we're starting over
17:08 < rillian> xiphmont, you mentioned uploading things. did that include the zope data from mf2?
17:08 < kfish> ahh ... i was going to suggest trac, we're in love with it here ;-)
17:09 < rillian> kfish, looking better is it?
17:09 < xiphmont> rillian: I had a complete if of mf2 backup
17:09 < xiphmont> Uploading did not go well.
17:09 < xiphmont> Mainly because my uplink is capped.
17:09 < rillian> can you bring the data to abq next week?
17:09 < xiphmont> I'll need to mail a box of CDs or get a DVD burner and mail it to you.
17:09 < kfish> rillian, amazing -- wiki + subversion integration, bug reports with wiki formatting etc.
17:09 < xiphmont> Hm, I don;t think I have enough CDRs, but I'll try.
17:10 < rillian> xiphmont, mailing me things would work too
17:10 < xiphmont> rillian: I'm actually leaving tomorrow.  Scratch that; I have enough CDRs.
17:10 < silvia_> and I love the svn diffs trec is displaying in html :)
17:10 < rillian> but jack has reasonable upstream
17:10 < xiphmont> OK
17:10 < rillian> silvia_, yeah, those are great
17:10 < xiphmont> It'll be about 50 CDRs.
17:10 < rillian> ok, jack and I like trac as well
17:10 < jack> i have 384k max.
17:11 < rillian> any votes *against* adopting trac for xiph.org?
17:11 -!- ozone [~pan068@c211-30-78-105.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #xiphmeet
17:11 < rillian> xiphmont, can't you just bring the hd?
17:11 < jack> bugzilla i think is more flexible as a bugtracker, but i agree wiki and svn integration are very nice.
17:12 < rillian> jack, anything specific that we're using in our bugzilla?
17:12 < jack> not at xiph.
17:12 < jack> it's jsut a stock install.
17:13 < rillian> so we wouldn't really lose anything by switching?
17:13 < xiphmont> rillian: It's not a HD.  It's a huge stash of tar files sitting on Snotfish.
17:13 < xiphmont> jack: kb or kB
17:13 < rillian> of course we got tones of push-back on switching to svn
17:13 < rillian> but not so many people use the bug tracker :)
17:13 < jack> bits.  768/384.
17:13 < xiphmont> well, we have the edited bugzilla logo I made, that's all :-)
17:14 < rillian> anyway, we can give it a try
17:14 < rillian> anyone interested in setting it up?
17:14 < xiphmont> ah, so only 50% faster than me.  It will take several weeks to upload.
17:14 < rillian> if not, I'll put it on the list
17:14 < Arc> rillian: setting up trac? if silvia_ isnt available, I'm installing it here locally right now. I'd be willing to afterwards
17:14 < xiphmont> rillian: oh, point... I have a spare 60G I can stick that on, yeah.
17:15 < rillian> xiphmont, good.
17:15 < rillian> a couple of people are still interested in their user dirs
17:15 < xiphmont> well, the drive isn't really 'spare'.  I'm using it as an offline backup storage.
17:15 < rillian> and of course it would be nice to have the wiki data to speed reconstruction
17:15 < xiphmont> yes, all true.
17:15 < rillian> Shall we move on the the progress reports?
17:16 < rillian> thomasvs has been very helpful with the autotools stuff in libvorbis
17:16 < rillian> I believe no one's done any windows work
17:16 < rillian> but otherwise libvorbis 1.1 and libogg 1.1.1 are both ready to go
17:16 < rillian> (as we said they were last month :P)
17:16 < rillian> Not much new on theora
17:16 < rillian> we have a draft spec
17:16 < rillian> derf's done some work on his encoder
17:17 < rillian> beta 1 is waiting on me to do some decoder additions and api changes
17:17 < derf_> Well, the experimental decoder is now pretty stable, and the only feature-complete implementation.
17:17 < Arc> derf_: how does it compair to the alpha3 decoder for speed?
17:18 < derf_> Arc: 13%-22% faster in informal tests.
17:18 < derf_> Bigger advantages with larger resolutions.
17:18 -!- Atamido [~Atamido@user-0ccsqo8.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #xiphmeet
17:19 < Atamido> Did I miss the meeting, or is it still going on?
17:19 < silvia_> derf_ good stuff!
17:19 < rillian> we've also had some MMX optimizations contributed
17:20 < rillian> including a reported 2x speedup on encode
17:20 < silvia_> Atamido: still going :)
17:20 < rillian> that's in the theora-mmx branch in svn
17:20 < Atamido> Whew!  At least I have clothes on now.
17:20 < rillian> kfish, how's liboggz?
17:20 -!- jmspeex [~jmspeex@h069176.v6pc245.miako.net] has joined #xiphmeet
17:21 < jmspeex> sorry for being a bit late
17:21 < rillian> hi jm
17:21 < kfish> rillian, about to do a new release of oggz
17:21 < jmspeex> Are there logs somewhere?
17:21 < kfish> just added some stuff for better network handling (ie. improved read IO overrides)
17:21 < kfish> and better error reporting
17:22 < rillian> jm, http://westfish.xiph.org/~giles/200409_meeting.txt (see subject)
17:22 < Atamido> What is "trac"?
17:22 < rillian> any progress on ogg2 support?
17:22 < kfish> and for fishsound i've been adding a bunch of api stuff for integer encode/decode
17:22 < kfish> ogg2 support: no, not yet
17:23 < kfish> we really need to sort out the type clashes between libogg1 and libogg2 first :-/
17:23 < xiphmont> yes, ogg2 should use ogg2_
17:23 < Arc> kfish: ask me. im available and knowledgable
17:23 < kfish> once that's done, it's pretty trivial to add libogg2 support to oggz
17:23 < xiphmont> However, that's still not an excuse for mixing both in an application.
17:23 < jack> trac is http://www.edgewall.com/
17:24 < ozone> also see http://trac.annodex.net/index.cgi/timeline if you want to have a look at it being used
17:24 < ozone> (althoguh there's no entries on the wiki yet, nor bug reports ;)
17:24 < rillian> I've not made any progress with theora glue for oggz
17:24 < rillian> jmspeex, what's new with speex?
17:25 < kfish> xiphlog, I think the two are close enough that all that's needed is different symbol names for things that deal with ogg2 style packets
17:25 < Atamido> Oh yeah, I've clicked thos links before.
17:25 < kfish> s/xiphlog/xiphmont/ ;-)
17:25 < Atamido> Its like sourceforge...
17:25 < jmspeex> Not much new with Speex since the last meeting.
17:25 < kfish> and a different type name for ogg2 packets
17:25 < xiphmont> kfish: OK, we'll discuss more offline,
17:25 < kfish> xiphlog, yeah cool :)
17:25 < jmspeex> I'm about to release 1.0.5 which has several API improvements, most of which resulting from discussions with kfish
17:26 < rillian> yay user feedback :)
17:27 < rillian> Ok. I guess none of the icecast people are here
17:27 < jmspeex> :-)
17:27 < rillian> but merging on karlh's stuff seems to be continuing
17:27 < rillian> funnelling things through branches
17:27 < rillian> dir.xiph.org is back
17:27 < xiphmont> Yay!
17:27 < xiphmont> I'm happy to hear that personally.
17:28 < rillian> anyone have any other project reports?
17:28 < Atamido> Could I get comments on this.  http://xiph.commo.de/projects/audio/speex/
17:28 < Atamido> Please don't comment on the Certified thingy, its just a place holder.
17:29 < xiphmont> Only that ISTO work continues and we've met with Ruckus Networks and opened a discussion about DRM.  No, Xiph's position has not changed [we don't like it], but the level of discussion is interesting and I'm continuing it.  If nothing else, it becomes an advocacy opportunity.
17:30 < xiphmont> Atamido: looking
17:30 < Atamido> The new website design is still pending several large decisions.
17:30 < xiphmont> heh.  A bit flat, but that's a nitpick.  A good start.  perhps a bit busy on indent formatting.
17:30 < Atamido> For instance, there should be some Xiph branding, but what form should it take.  i.e. the certified thingy.
17:30 < kfish> yay the parrot!
17:31 < rillian> Atamido, I like the cut-in nav menu
17:31 < silvia_> is that going to get merged with speex.org?
17:31 < rillian> the round-rect tabs don't harmonize with their fonts
17:31 < rillian> and the parrot is too close to the top tab
17:31 < silvia_> I like the design and that it includes all xiph codecs in an easily navigable page
17:31 < xiphmont> Ah, jmspeex reminds me that 'permanent member homepage location' is to be mentioned.
17:31 < Atamido> Also, I wanted to mostly standardize the menu options on the left for all of the projects, but I need a rundown of whats necessary without overloading the menu.
17:32 < rillian> and I never liked the alternating-indent overlapped news items adi did
17:32 < rillian> otherwise, a good direction
17:32 < xiphmont> I had promised he would have one by now, but I did not yet follow through chasing it  Let's discuss that a moment so there's an action item.
17:32 < derf_> I should point out that the way the layout is structured now, the only thing on the initial screen I can see is the nav bars, centered around a huge blank area. I have to scroll down to get to the content.
17:32  * kfish plays with the flying parrot rollover on the menu
17:32 < derf_> (I tend to keep my browser windows small)
17:33 < Atamido> rillian:  I was using the speex news format that already existed, but I am not committed to it.
17:33 < rillian> silvia_, yes. we'd like to re-unify all the various websites.
17:33 < xiphmont> Atamido: I think it is somewhat wasteful of space in that the formatting is a bit busy and distracting.  but the overall look is good and I think it will clean up nicely (right now it looks a bit like it's trying too hard)
17:34 < Atamido> derf_:  What browser are you using.
17:34 < jmspeex> xiphmont: I think we have the same opinion then.
17:34 < derf_> Atamido: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.2)
17:34 < Atamido> kfish:  The parrot hover effect is generally disliked and probably won't stay.
17:35 < xiphmont> parrot hover?
17:35 < derf_> On the side-bar.
17:35 < Atamido> There is a hover effect on the left navbar on the speex page.
17:35 < xiphmont> yeah?  
17:35 < xiphmont> Oh.
17:35 < Atamido> It doesn't work in IE though.
17:35 < xiphmont> I kinda liked that.
17:36 < xiphmont> (In case it matters. :-)
17:36 < Atamido> That makes two that like it and about 10 that didn't.
17:36 < Atamido> Well, actually, two girls I know commented that they liked it.
17:36 < xiphmont> s'fine
17:36 < rillian> I kind of like it too
17:36 < xiphmont> girls or grlz?
17:36 < Atamido> But as jmspeex pointed out, what girl is going to think your codec is sexy?
17:36 < jmspeex> :-D
17:37 < xiphmont> My last three....
17:37 < silvia_> I like the hover too :)
17:37 < silvia_> jmspeex, your codec is sexy!!!
17:37 < Atamido> "Hey baby, wanna see my low bitrate voice over IP speech codec?"
17:37 < Atamido> "Thats right, I call it speex..."
17:37 < silvia_> better than looking at stamps, man
17:38 < rillian> hahaha
17:38 < rillian> anyway
17:38 < rillian> Atamido, that sufficient feedback?
17:38 < Atamido> derf_:  The only reason it is dropping down then is the Certified thingy.  Remove that and problem gone.
17:38 < Atamido> rillian:  Mostly.  But more input as to what to change to remove 'business' would be nice.
17:39 < rillian> remove the Certified thingie :)
17:39 < Atamido> Also, are there any ideas what what to use instead of the Certified thingy?
17:39 < rillian> you also need to integrate volsung and vanguardist's ideas about use-specific web pages
17:40 < Atamido> derf_:  Also note that if your window is that small, you won't see all of the tabs at the top.
17:40 < xiphmont> That is feedback best collected offline... but perhaps only to a well chosen list of mail recipients.
17:40 < rillian> "I'm and artist", "I'm a coder", "I'm a distributer"
17:40 < xiphmont> tor
17:40 < xiphmont> :-)
17:40 < xiphmont> Moving along...
17:40 < rillian> xiphmont, exactly
17:40 < derf_> Atamido: Yes, the last two are cut off, but I can scroll.
17:40 < rillian> acolwell, how are things with helix?
17:40 < Atamido> Just thought it would be nice to plug people right now while they are all there.  :)
17:40 < xiphmont> I would like ~user webspace at xiph.org reestablished.
17:41 < xiphmont> This is not Atamido's domain.  I will do it, but wanted to coordinate with ralph if I do.
17:41 < acolwell> I posted Helix Producer plugins for Theora and Vorbis on the xiph page yseterday
17:41 < Atamido> Wasn't the ~user space going to go on a different domain?
17:41 < xiphmont> (also, I need to be grandfathered back into xiph.org/xiphmont, possibly via the same mechanism)
17:41 < Atamido> users.xiph.org or whatnot?
17:41 < acolwell> They are getting talked about on Doom9. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=9d9321465e0f95f6bdef20c1ea7b1b05&threadid=81702
17:41 < silvia_> instead of certified, just call it "Xiph's Open Media Technologies" or so?
17:41 < xiphmont> The problem is five years of broken links in the wild we can;t repair
17:41 < rillian> Atamido, yes. users.xiph or people.xiph was the plan
17:41 < xiphmont> Has to be the old domain
17:42 < xiphmont> Or, redirect to it.
17:42 < Atamido> Redirect I'm sure would be fine.
17:42 < rillian> with redirects for important legacy stuff like monty's home page :)
17:42 < xiphmont> yes, it would.
17:42 < xiphmont> actually, the big priority right now is Jean-Marc's
17:42 < xiphmont> He needs to have his papers available.
17:42 < acolwell> This has peeked the interests of one of our codec engineers and he has been fixing some of the "known issues" that I posted in the release.
17:43 < rillian> acolwell, good news!
17:43 < xiphmont> s/redirect to/redirect from/
17:43 < rillian> do you have any stats of adoption?
17:44 < jmspeex> BTW, not yet time to celebrate, but I got asked a few questions from a Rio engineer and it looks promising.
17:44 < rillian> xiphmont, jm, as I said, we can just make you guys accounts on mf3 and serve them off the people.xiph.org domain. If you're hurting for webspace we should just do that.
17:44 < acolwell> no. I think people are still trying to play with it. I would suggest that someone get on that thread and start defending Theora a little
17:44 < rillian> the hold up was setting up ldap so we could manage non-core user accounts a little better
17:45 < xiphmont> rillian: I know it's not hard, I just want to coordinate as I do.
17:45 < jmspeex> rillian: My main concern is that I have conf. papers that links to www.xiph.org/~jm/ and I'd like that to keep working one way or another.
17:46 < rillian> jmspeex, ok. we'll see if we can solve the redirect problem
17:46 < derf_> Speaking of papers, I intend to publish something about the boundary padding technique in the experimental encoder, and extensions to arbitrary-shape coding in general.
17:46 < xiphmont> rillian: is there a reason not to use my key already on westfish for mf3 access?
17:46 < derf_> I still need a working encoder to be able to run the experiments, but the technical write-up is mostly done.
17:46 < rillian> derf_, cool. 
17:46 < xiphmont> wait....
17:47 < xiphmont> westfish is www?
17:47  * Atamido watches the Xiph Certified logo disappear.
17:47 < rillian> xiphmont, several machines are www. that's the whole issue.
17:47 < xiphmont> would a hard redirect rule on each be a problem?  They share a common apache conf don't they?
17:48 < xiphmont> this would be purely a legacy maneuver, and thus would not require updating.
17:48 < rillian> that's probably what we'll have to do
17:48 < xiphmont> OK
17:48 < rillian> we can redirect /xiphmont/ with a .htaccess
17:48 < rillian> but the /~user/ stuff will have to be rewrite rule I think
17:49 < xiphmont> ok
17:49 < rillian> acolwell, defend theora a bit?
17:49 < xiphmont> (any reason not to redirect xiphmont with a rule too?  Just curious)
17:49 < Atamido> I can't think of one.
17:50 < rillian> (we don't have conf access on all the mirrors, so .htaccess stuff is quicker. that's all)
17:50 < acolwell> rillian: They don't think the quality is very good.  I would just be nice to have someone from the Theora project addressing their complaints
17:51 < rillian> derf_, you interested in doing that?
17:51 < derf_> I don't think the quality of the reference encoder is very good.
17:51 < xiphmont> rillian: how do the mirrors get confs?  Wouldn't that be a problem for all user accounts then?
17:52 < acolwell> derf_: when will your encoder be ready for general use?
17:52 < rillian> xiphmont, we ask the admins to set things we need. I don't understand the second question.
17:52 < jmspeex> rillian: when do you think we can get the redirects working?
17:52 < rillian> quite quickly
17:52 < jmspeex> good
17:53 < derf_> acolwell: When I've rooted out the bugs, and done a lot more testing.
17:53 < xiphmont> your answer states how getting /xiphmont propogated is easier that way.  However, it means we still need to ask for the ~jm redirect anyway
17:53 < rillian> xiphmont, correct. I was answering your parenthetical question.
17:53 < derf_> My best guess is "early adopters only" until at least next year.
17:54 < xiphmont> Hm, ok.
17:54 < xiphmont> fair enough :-)
17:55 < rillian> ok.
17:55 < rillian> silvia_, anything of interest you'd like to report from your group?
17:55 < acolwell> Ok. I just want to keep these guys interested in Theora so they don't drop it from their feature set
17:55 < rillian> acolwell, amen
17:55 < rillian> and thanks again for all your work in support of theora
17:56 < acolwell> derf_ : Does your encoder compile for Windows, and is it's api much different than the reference encoder?
17:56 < rillian> the api is different from the alpha 3 reference encoder
17:56 < derf_> acolwell: It did at one point. I haven't updated the project files in a while, as I no longer have a working Windows machine.
17:56 < rillian> but we're converging the APIs :)
17:57 < derf_> The API isn't that different... it didn't take more than a few minutes to port the example_encoder and dump_video examples to it.
17:57 < silvia_> rillian: we've been porting libraries to symbian and they're all working now
17:57 < rillian> I've seen those commits.
17:57 < silvia_> speex, vorbis, theora
17:57 -!- volsung [~volsung@cs6668113-106.austin.rr.com] has joined #xiphmeet
17:57 < rillian> is there anything special we could/should do about those in terms of release engineering?
17:58 < derf_> Though the encoding parameters are different (more accurately, most of them are gone), which could have a bigger impact on GUIs that expose them.
17:58 < kfish> rillian, the last release of speex 1.1 mentioned symbian support
17:59 < kfish> it's probably worth mentioning in the next releases of libvorbis and libtheora
17:59 < rillian> *nod*
17:59 < kfish> we'll probably have some time to do some win32 testing in a few weeks too
17:59 < rillian> are there proper venues for binaries we should investigate, or is this all at app-developer level still?
17:59 < acolwell> derf_ : does your encoder generate video that looks as good or better than the reference encoder?
18:00 < kfish> rillian, just libs atm
18:00 < rillian> kfish, help with win32 would be wonderful
18:00 < acolwell> silvia_ : Where are the Symbian changes checked in? I'd like to see if I can compile them and build the Helix plugins for Symbian. 
18:01 < derf_> acolwell: Right now it generates video with some severe artifacts due to bug(s) causing the decoder to lose its place in the bitstream.
18:01 < kfish> the symbian development is on windows, but for a non-win32 target, hence a bunch of recent win32 warning disablings etc
18:01 < derf_> (i.e., the encoder writes the wrong number of bits, and the rest of the packet is garbage)
18:01 < kfish> acolwell, it's all checked in the trunk of libvorbis, libspeex, libtheora
18:02 < kfish> each has a symbian dir, there's a README.symbian in at least libspeex ...
18:02 < derf_> I've tracked down at least one such bug to the motion vector section, but haven't isolated the specifc problem yet. Not sure how many more such bugs might remain.
18:02 < acolwell> kfish :  I the vorbis codec fixed pt or floating point?
18:02 < kfish> theora compiles without float or encode support
18:02 < kfish> actually, we've only got libvorbis, not tremor on symbian
18:02 < jmspeex> acolwell, get the SVN version and not 1.1.6 if you want symbian.
18:03 < kfish> ie. libvorbis (float) is pretty useless on the device, but it's ok for testing on the emulator
18:03 < kfish> libvorbisidec doesn't play nicely with the other libs atm, that's something to address soon
18:03 < acolwell> ok I'll check it out. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I wish I had more time to work on this stuff.
18:04 < kfish> don't we all :)
18:04 < derf_> Yeah, no kidding.
18:06 < kfish> btw i set up daily builds of the theora docs, could someone link these to theora.org somewhere?
18:07 < kfish> http://www.annodex.net/software/theora/
18:07 < kfish> (especially useful for people on win32 without doxygen/latex foo)
18:07 < derf_> (one might ask the question, why doesn't Xiph provide its own daily builds?)
18:08 < acolwell> jmspeex: Is there a fixed point version of Speex in SVN?
18:08 < jmspeex> acolwell: yes
18:08 < jmspeex> all you have to do is use --enable-fixed-point or define FIXED_POINT
18:09 < jmspeex> That only works for 1.1.x
18:09 -!- rillianbis [~giles@mist.thaumas.net] has joined #xiphmeet
18:09 < kfish> (if anyone wants the scripts i set up for daily builds, just ask -- next thing is of course to build/test binaries) 
18:09 < acolwell> jmspeex: ok thanks. I'll take a look at that
18:10 < rillianbis> kfish, perhaps you could check them in under svn.xiph.org/websites/theora.org/ ?
18:10 < kfish> rillianbis, okies, will look there
18:10 < derf_> Or at least talk to Atamido about how to get them integrated into the site.
18:10 < rillianbis> ta
18:11  * Atamido looks up.
18:11 < rillianbis> kfish, you're also welcome to post news items with links on theora.org
18:11 < kfish> rillian, ah ok, ta
18:11 < rillianbis> ok. all this sounds good
18:11 < rillianbis> any other issues?
18:11 < rillianbis> otherwise, I move we adjourn
18:11 < Atamido> Any ETA for when to move the website to a new design?
18:12 < rillianbis> Atamido, only when we're entirely happy with the replacement
18:12 < rillianbis> I know it's frustrating, but we're picky about it
18:12 < Atamido> I mean a unified web design in general.
18:12 < jmspeex> rillianbis: there are a few things I don't like with the current design of the replacement, but it's still much better than the current design anyway.
18:13 < silvia_> does the new website already contain all the content from the old one?
18:13 < rillianbis> that's why I've been asking for fixes to theora.org at a higher priority than the redesign
18:13 < Atamido> silvia_:  Not until I have a timeframe, otherwise I end up doing the same thing twice.
18:13 < rillianbis> Atamido, it's not like anyone's updating xiph.org or vorbis.com
18:14 < silvia_> Atamido, I think there's an "ogg" section missing
18:14 < Atamido> I am not touching the general layout of the Xiph.org site.
18:14 < Atamido> And I was not aware of anything pending on vorbis.com.
18:14 < silvia_> I think it would be good to take the container format descriptions and technicalities out of the codecs
18:15 < rillianbis> silvia_, not sure what you mean?
18:15 < Atamido> silvia_:  It was said to not have a tab specific for it.
18:15 < rillianbis> Atamido, ogg needs its own section
18:15 < Atamido> It will probably be listed under "Other".
18:15 < rillianbis> on the same level as the codecs
18:15 < silvia_> so, let me propose it: let's add a tab for ogg
18:15 < rillianbis> seconded :)
18:15 < kfish> oath!
18:16 < Arc> I had a suggestion about ogg.org as well
18:16 < Atamido> I'm not sure if the page would fit into a 1024 screen with an Ogg tab added at the top.
18:16 < kfish> screw that, we need a .ogg TLD
18:16 < Arc> since xiph.org has always been more directed towards tech-minded people, rather than users..
18:16 < Atamido> Besides, there is relatively little to say abou tit.
18:17 < Atamido> *about it
18:17 < kfish> Atamido, there's _plenty_ to say about ogg :)
18:17 < Atamido> Is there any issue with it being under the "Other" section?
18:17 < Atamido> kfish:  How many news items have there been specific to Ogg in the past 6 months?
18:17 < Arc> I was suggesting setting up ogg.org as an advocacy site to end users, like vorbis.com has typically been
18:17 < rillianbis> yes, it's on par with the codecs in importance
18:17 < kfish> it's the technology that ties the others together
18:18 < kfish> and the web site's not just about news, it's about getting info out there
18:18 < Atamido> Oh wait, I remember why there isn't a tab for it, because there isn't a page for it.
18:18 < silvia_> anybody wanting to learn about ogg needs to see a link to ogg directly on the entrance page
--- Log closed Wed Sep 01 18:18:56 2004
--- manual insert of lost content
<Atamido> http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
<silvia_> Atamido, yeah, that should get fixed, too :)
<Atamido> That is the closest thing to an "Ogg" page, but it isn't _about_ Ogg.
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<Atamido> Thats the problem, there isn't enough info to fill up a whole section.
<silvia_> It's currently hidden on http://xiph.org/ogg/vorbis/docs.html
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<silvia_> at the bottom
<Atamido> The same reason the other projects are listed under "other".
--- end manual insert
--- Log opened Wed Sep 01 18:20:16 2004
18:20 -!- Channel #xiphmeet created Sat Aug 28 11:28:49 2004
18:20 < silvia_> and nobody ever finds it, cause it's not vorbis-specific
18:20 < derf_> Except those of us who already know where it is.
18:20 -!- rillian [~giles@mist.thaumas.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:20 < silvia_> I've had to point at least 10 people in the last 6 months at that location
18:20 < kfish> Atamido, there's plenty to say -- format overview, link to the rfc, link to libs etc.
18:20 < Atamido> rillianbis:  Is the meeting adjourned now?
18:20 < derf_> The amount of content is not vast, but it's IMPORTANT.
18:21 -!- rillianbis is now known as rillian
18:21 < Atamido> kfish:  Congrats, you just made enough info for a single webpage.
18:21 < rillian> we have not adjourned
18:21 < rillian> but perhaps the website discussion can continue later
18:22 < rillian> I move we adjourn
18:22 < silvia_> wasn't there also a designed icon for ogg?
18:22 < Atamido> silvia_:  I haven't seen one, but lets wait until the adjourning is finished.
18:22 < rillian> princess ilea did one, but we didn't like it much
18:23 < volsung> Just a sec.
18:23 < rillian> a rat chewing on a file folder :)
18:23 < volsung> Fishing for link.
18:23 < volsung> It's a HAMSTER!
18:23 < rillian> Ok. no seconds, but I need to go
18:23 < kfish> somehow i think a mad hamster chewing on a file folder is quite appropriate
18:23  * Atamido wonders when the meeting will finish adjourning so he can pump people for website stuff.
18:23 < Arc> why a hamster and not just a fish?
18:23 < rillian> So, this meeting is adjourned
18:24 < Arc> I want the hamster for writ :-)
18:24 < xiphmont> seconded.
18:24 < xiphmont> oops, too late
18:24 < rillian> y'all can natter on about the website in your own time :)
18:24 < Atamido> Thirded.
18:24 < rillian> thanks everyone for coming
18:24 < kfish> thanks rillian
18:24 < rillian> see you next month! and online inbetween :)
--- Log closed Wed Sep 01 18:24:31 2004